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Talk:Gnume/wip-SC
Wow that is some work. Some of it is quite good and there is a lot of work in it. but I would want to exclude citizens an non military people, because then the Union would become a facist state in my oppinion. Even the lowest security clearance requires some form of check. The CITI should be enough to vote. It opens a big can of worms. What constitutes mind control and influence? Only active psionic control which is illegal? Or will it include propaganda, personal influence, conditioning, drugs? If yes is the answer t any of these, it would require medical tests, psychological exams etc. Now a person who choses military service might expect such form of examination, but it should not be part of civilian life. It would infringe on too many personal liberties. If it is voluntary it would create a class society of those with clearances and those without. While the Union is in fact a class society (Cits , Non Cits ) it stresses a class free -every one is equal condition among its citizens. The Union is my Utopia menaing it is the society I would want to live in. I am an American , and very conservative at that, meaning the Constitution is as holy and important to me as the Bible . Meaning I firmly believe every Amendments is fundamental. I firmly believe in the valitity of the Bill of Rights. Of course it is an Utopia with flaws (Only flaws create stories) My political world view is manifested in the "Union" (I am a Libertarian ) and that is what Sci Fi writers do, underneath all my stories is an underlying message and an Utopia I like to see happen. Star Trek has this, the Foundation series of Issac Asmiov , Arthur C. Clark and most certainly Robert Heinlein and Harrison to name just a few. Even Star Wars has a base philosophy. With having said all this I am terribly proud of your hard work and dedication, and I think your system merits discussion and implementation in a modified version. Thanks for doing such a tremendous job VR i should have written more detailed explanations i should have written more detailed explanations. what i ment for the general clearance that they would be done in fairly automated way in a post office (in one of the post office galnet booths): hpi test to compare to the citizens original hpi test. full body dna scan or equivalent to check for brain transplant or similar procedure. an automatic scan for active psionic influence. an automated psych interview to asses that the is no forced external influence. that for green and green-green. with the higher level has less margin of error allowed in the readings. for green-green-green the psych, psion and DNA/medical scan are done by sentient doctors certified to do so in an large post office or an union clinic. that was my original idea. so i dont think any actual union citizen will have problams passing any of it. Gnume (talk) 07:12, May 13, 2014 (UTC) also maybe i didnt make it clear also maybe i didnt make it clear sufficiently the general level clearance can be obtained by any citizen by going to the post office and asking for one of the general clearances. green is free. green-green has token price of 30 credits for the initial exam. green-green-green costs 150 credits. most citizens get at minimum green clearance during their mandatory 22 month service. recertification is a simpal affire of 15 minout scan in an post office galnet booth. Gnume (talk) 07:29, May 13, 2014 (UTC) Well this still need discussion Well this still need discussion (read the Security Clearance article for reference) And why charge the Citizen for the clearance? VR Don't get the wrong impression Don't get the wrong impression, this is some serious work and thought you put into this and for this reason alone I am thinking of ways to make it somehow fit without losing the base character of my philosophy that is the soul of my stories so to speak. VR Knight Ranger (talk) 13:53, May 13, 2014 (UTC) I would say that the nominal fee should just be a few credits (less than 5) if it's charged at all. Gnume, are you thinking in terms of certain positions within civilian companies requiring a security clearance for some reason or another, and instead of each company coming up with their own for everyone just use the standardized military/government one? Knight Ranger (talk) 13:53, May 13, 2014 (UTC) ok answers : ok answers : the charge is mostly to discourage companies of demanding their workers from having green-green-green clearance unless it is really necessary as the company is required by law to pay the charge if there is such an requirement. the minor reason is to pay for the use of the higher sensitivity testing machines / the pay for the living examiners. and to Knight Ranger : partially. companies that work with union sensitive information should have union clearance to work with it. it isnt sufficient to just the owner/CEO/chairman of the board to have clearance. every worker that works in the company with union data should have an union clearance. Gnume (talk) 14:13, May 13, 2014 (UTC) I agree that those that work I agree that those that work with Union Sentive information should have the appropriate security clearance for that indormation - even in cases that the information is also proprietary (like the Space Trains.) I was thinking in particular in the case of certain positions that might have access to company proprietary that are to remain secret from competidors. Even though it's not Union sensitive information, the clearance can indicate the likelyhood of the information being leaked. Knight Ranger (talk) 14:46, May 13, 2014 (UTC) Sorry guys that goes nowhere. I am also sorry for saying that security system is well worked out an all that but way to complicated and not really needed. Private companies are exactly that, private. If they work on government projects, they are only cleared to work on that project. No engineer who works on TL cannons and thus has a very high clearance could ask for Cadet Johnsons personnel records or ask for the mission plans of a courier ship going from Earth to Mars . I think there is a misconception what a security level / clearance is. It is not a title, achievement or card blance check. It is not giving command authority (It does give the authority to refuse and order. i.e. giving information ) It is a tool and a condition. It allows administrative control of information and information holders. If you read the blurb/ article I added called Security Clearance . It outlines how the US handles this. I had the great honor and pleasure to work with the Mossad and with the Kidon Unit , Operation Solomon . Back then it was the most secret operation there was. In terms of secrecy and security clearance levels they do not have anything more complicated than the system used by the US ( the implimentation is much tighter and better, but then they are a fractrion of the size compared to US Intelligence) What I am trying to say, those guys know secrets and secrecy and how to keep them, I doubt the Union could come up with a better one in 5050. Yes they have better technology and have tools, every secret service in the world would drool about (Brain Dump , bio Flex masks , molecular body change, bio implants, mircro burst communiation, retina cameras and of course Psionics . But the methods are the same (only the tools and conditions are different) *A spy at the court of Cleopatra tried to find out what plans the Egyptian army had. Cleopatra's guards tried to prevent the guy from getting it. *A spy in 1944 tried to get the secret of the Wunderwaffe 4 ( Vergeltungswaffe V1 , V2 , V3 etc) while the Gestapo triedto prevent that. *A spy tries to get the secrets of US nuclear submarine deployment ( the highest US secret btw) and the FBI tries to prevent that. *A Kermac Agent tries to find out the secret of Translocator Cannons and NAVINT and Cherubims TSI tries to prevent them. Technology changes, the methods and motivations do not, and in all these examples there is only one element that could fail, and that is the Human element (or sentient being). No spy satellite can gaze into a file locker and make pictures of Blue Prints of the North Korean Nuclear devices, but the secretary, or the adjudant of the General can. The trick for the spy agency to develop an asset (Spy) and the job of counter intelligence is it to prevent it. To deveop an asset you look for weaknesses such as gambling,sexual secrets, sex, political or religious convictions or common greed. No spy choses to be one at start, they are all slide into it. A security clearance does the very same thing; looking for weaknesses and tries to address them. Either by observation, by education or simply by denying the security clearance. The CEO and the entire board of Boeing has no clue what secrets go into a F22 Raptor . Lookheed Martin CEO and board don't even know who works fr their Skunkworks development and research facility. Yet Skunkworks is a part of the company and the engineers working there work on stuff so secret not even the president of the United States has the clearance to know what they do. Meaning the bigger and more complicated the systesm is the more likley it is to fail . The old wisdeom called KIS (Keep it simple) holds true especially for security. More security levels mean for example the checking officer, has to know what the security level means. Now he might have slept during the last briefing, his Computronic is down, or not able to receive info (being jammed for example) Or the officer is simply tired, lazy or "knows the guy". All this is unlikely but possible and the more levels, rules, exceptions and regulations you add the more likley mistakes become. Example : you have a cash box and there is only one key and you have it, the chances someone else gets your key are slim. You know who you have given it to, or where you had it last. Limiting the culprits if there is money missing. Now if there are a hundred keys, the possibilitiies multiply to the square root. One guy looses the key, and every one has to get a new one made and the lock changed. A guy makes a copy just because he knows he is forgetful. Suddenly there is a key you have no idea exists (in IT security this is called a back door btw) One guy forgets his key and borrows the key of a friend.. This is only an analogy (but one they teach you at day one in Intelligence Class) but it illiustrates that KIS is an important factor. So coming to a conclusion, I hope you followed what I had to say until here, and it becomes apparent that the system you proposed is nice and well thought out, but not practical. One more thing, if I use that security system in a story I need to spend five pages to explan it to a reader (who doesn't know about the Wiki) So in conclution , I think the existing system is fine. You and Knight found the kinks and logical problems and I think we should leave it as it is in terms of Canon story purposes. Hoping for your understanding Your's Vanessa Ravencroft (talk) 18:12, May 13, 2014 (UTC) not what i really ment. not what i really ment. corporate workers have R (restricted) flaged clearance. so they do have the clearance but no access to information unless they have the correct data/project flags. for union officers they have an regular clearance. and they level of information they can access without any flags. for exemple blue-orange-yellow clearance holders have access to general military star maps as this is the base clearance for union captain. lower clearances or R (restricted) flaged clearances will need to to have the specifgic data tag to access it. Gnume (talk) 23:51, May 13, 2014 (UTC) How about that? I can see your system working for the subject the information. Instead of the person a document or a file is classified like that. VR actually it allready partipally like that. the special category is mostly for data classification and security only. the general category is mostly for idntification proccess and actual citizenship vertification. but the other cotogories are more mixed bag. the restricted flag / subclassification exist mostly to annonce that that spcific clearance is for mostly data only. Gnume (talk) 09:51, May 14, 2014 (UTC)